Discussion:
#Georgians to take up arms against Russian occupiers?
(too old to reply)
Kurt Nicklas
2008-08-14 23:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Amid promise of peace, Georgians live in terror· Russian militia
accused of orgies of looting and rape
· Fleeing villagers accuse Medvedev of betrayalLuke Harding in Gori
The Guardian, Thursday August 14 2008 Article history

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia

Russian paramilitaries on the road towards Tbilisi. The Russian army
left Gori in convoy and stopped about 30 miles from the city.
Photograph: Sean Smith

The first armoured personnel carrier nudged past the top of the hill.
It paused as if getting its bearings, and then set off towards
Tbilisi. Behind it, an endless column of Russian military vehicles
appeared on a shimmering horizon - trucks, tankers, and a beaten-up
Nissan.

The Russian army was on the move. What wasn't clear was where it was
going. For the next hour the column continued its sedate progress,
past yellow fields and a hazy mountain valley, from Gori towards the
Georgian capital,Tbilisi.

Thirty miles from the city, it stopped. A Russian soldier hopped out
of his vehicle and began directing traffic. "We've been told to stay
there," he explained, pointing down a rough dirt track towards the
rustic hamlet of Orjosari, just over a mile away.

The soldier said Russia didn't intend to keep going down the main
highway connecting Tbilisi to Gori, and the east and west of the
country. "The only reason we've come here is because of a provokazia
by Mikheil Saakashvili," he said, accusing Georgia's president of
wrongdoing.

In theory the conflict between Russia and Georgia is now over, as
European negotiators led by France's president, Nicolas Sarkozy,
hammer out a peace deal. In reality, Russia's mighty war machine was
trundling insouciantly through Georgia.

Several Russian trucks overshot and missed their turning. One broke
down. A soldier got the wheezing vehicle going again. Where was he
from? "Chechnya. We've come here to help," he said.

For the terrified residents of Gori and surrounding villages, it
didn't seem like help. Yesterday morning, as the Russian tanks
advanced from their base in South Ossetia they passed through Georgian
controlled-villages, telling residents to hang out white flags or be
shot.

Behind them, according to people fleeing those villages, came a
militia army of Chechen and Ossetian volunteers who had joined up with
the regular Russian army. The volunteers embarked on an orgy of
looting, burning, murdering and rape, witnesses claimed, adding that
the irregulars had carried off young girls and men.

"They killed my neighbour's 15-year-old son. Everyone was fleeing in
panic," Larisa Lazarashvili, 45, said. "The Russian tanks arrived at
our village at 11.20am. We ran away. We left everything - our cattle,
our house, and our possessions."

Achiko Khitarishvili, 39, from Berbuki, added: "They were killing,
burning and stealing. My village isn't in a conflict zone. It's pure
Georgia."

These claims of Russian atrocities were impossible to verify. But the
mood of panic was real enough - with villagers fleeing towards Tbilisi
by all means possible. One family of eight piled into a tiny white
Lada; others fled on tractors.

For much of the day the Russian troops in Gori were busying destroying
Georgia's military infrastructure. Smoke poured from the military
supply camp in the village of Uplistsikhe.

Those who fled expressed a feeling of betrayal. They said Russia's
president, Dmitry Medvedev, had duped them. "I believed him when he
said there was peace. That's why we stayed in our homes. But it isn't
true," Lamzika Tushmali, 62, said. She added: "There is no ceasefire."

At the end of the Russian column, a group of volunteers arrived in a
shabby mini-van flying a Russian flag. One of them had his face
covered with a balaclava; all were heavily armed; their mood was
exuberant. What were they doing? "We've come for a holiday," one said.

For most of the day there was no sign of the Georgian army. After five
days of ferocious bombardment by Russian warplanes, it appears not to
exist. With rumours swirling of an imminent Russian attack on Tbilisi,
however, Georgia mustered a platoon of 50 soldiers, who took up
positions 10 miles down the road from where the Russians appeared to
have parked up for the night.

On Georgian radio, meanwhile, military experts were discussing the
possibility of a new partisan war against the Russians - suggesting
that the government's failure meant that it was time for ordinary
Georgians to take the initiative.

It's an idea that may take root. "I spent two years in the Soviet
army. If there is a partisan army I'll be in the first row," Koba
Chkhirodze, 41, said yesterday.
Richo
2008-08-15 00:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Amid promise of peace, Georgians live in terror· Russian militia
accused of orgies of looting and rape
· Fleeing villagers accuse Medvedev of betrayalLuke Harding in Gori
The Guardian, Thursday August 14 2008 Article history
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia
Its odd that the western media doesn't pay attention to who
precipitated all this by sending in troops in the first place - the US
backed government of Georgia.
They sent troops into South Ossetia and attacked the local people and
the Russian peace keepers - the Russian invasion was a response to
this provocation.

The people of these regions have long memories of mistreatment by
Georgia and that is why they are seeking independence.

This is a much more complex situation than the western media like to
imply.

Mark.
Kurt Nicklas
2008-08-15 11:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richo
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Amid promise of peace, Georgians live in terror· Russian militia
accused of orgies of looting and rape
· Fleeing villagers accuse Medvedev of betrayalLuke Harding in Gori
The Guardian, Thursday August 14 2008 Article history
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia
Its odd that the western media doesn't pay attention to who
precipitated all this by sending in troops in the first place - the US
backed government of Georgia.
They sent troops into South Ossetia and attacked the local people and
the Russian peace keepers - the Russian invasion was a response to
this provocation.
The people of these regions have long memories of mistreatment by
Georgia and that is why they are seeking independence.
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.

Another thing the western media is not reporting is where did those
S. Ossetian militia get their arms, uniforms and equipment....

Could I hazard a guess.
mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-15 15:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa

if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Free Lunch
2008-08-15 16:29:09 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:40:19 -0700, mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
But the USA is special. God loves us and doesn't care what we do.

</snark>
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 17:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
Yawn. Same old lame slogans.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Bert Hyman
2008-08-15 17:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.

They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | ***@iphouse.com
i***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 17:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
--
May be you say what last territory occupied by Russia?
I know only Iraq, Afganistan, Yugoslavia - but Russia didn't do that -
It's NATO.
And by the way if Russia destroying Georgian army 3 days ago why
Georgia is still not occupied?
May be you don't see it?

Bert Hyman
2008-08-15 17:58:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@gmail.com
And by the way if Russia destroying Georgian army 3 days ago
Georgia had an army?
Post by i***@gmail.com
why Georgia is still not occupied?
Are you sure it's not?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | ***@iphouse.com
i***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 18:18:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by i***@gmail.com
And by the way if Russia destroying Georgian army 3 days ago
Georgia had an army?
Hehe USA, NATO, Ukraine, Poland, Israel - all last years make
georgians army with instructors, weapons, money.
When Georgia invided in S. Osetia they have the most efficient army in
region. 10% of gross national product in Georgia is going to the army.
They have at least 400 tanks, many heavy artellery, 35000 people.
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by i***@gmail.com
why Georgia is still not occupied?
Are you sure it's not?
--
You see arrested Saakashvilli? Russian tanks in Tbilisi?
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 18:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the American
campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Bert Hyman
2008-08-15 18:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
Unless you think the US is going to absorb either of those places into
its territory, no, it's not.

Remember, the Russians claim they moved in to protect "Russian
citizens" living in Georgia; a more proper analogy would be Mexico
invading San Diego.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | ***@iphouse.com
i***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 18:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
Unless you think the US is going to absorb either of those places into
its territory, no, it's not.
and? if you think killing without any reason better than absorbing
(but I don't think we wanna absorb Georgia) then you are unmotivated
killer - maniac
Post by Bert Hyman
Remember, the Russians claim they moved in to protect "Russian
citizens" living in Georgia; a more proper analogy would be Mexico
invading San Diego.
America is enter to the Yugoslavia to save Kosovo people - not your
citizens. And America bombing all Yugoslavia include civil objects.
Russia just destroy army and stop war.
mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-15 21:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
Unless you think the US is going to absorb either of those places into
its territory, no, it's not.
Remember, the Russians claim they moved in to protect "Russian
citizens" living in Georgia; a more proper analogy would be Mexico
invading San Diego.
the usa invading grenada?

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 21:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
Unless you think the US is going to absorb either of those places into
its territory, no, it's not.
Remember, the Russians claim they moved in to protect "Russian
citizens" living in Georgia; a more proper analogy would be Mexico
invading San Diego.
the usa invading grenada?
Nope.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-15 18:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the American
campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we don't
respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to give up
Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province in a similar
situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the Georgian government
is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US and NATO have already shown
that we don't really care to be consistent about territorial integrity.
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 19:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the American
campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we
don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to
give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province in
a similar situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the Georgian
government is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US and NATO have
already shown that we don't really care to be consistent about
territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge
to rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-15 19:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the American
campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we
don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to
give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province in
a similar situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the Georgian
government is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US and NATO have
already shown that we don't really care to be consistent about
territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was Russian
spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that Georgia has no
better arguments than the ones that the US already undermined.
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 19:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we
don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to
give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province
in a similar situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the
Georgian government is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US and
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be consistent
about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that
Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US already
undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except via
false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge
to rule." - H L Mencken
mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-15 21:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except via
false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
i see where this is going

you really dont care what happens to georgians
as long as you can puff yourself up
at how good and moral you are

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 21:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except via
false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
i see where this is going
you really dont care what happens to georgians
as long as you can puff yourself up
at how good and moral you are
I know you are but what am I?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-15 22:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we
don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to
give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province
in a similar situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the
Georgian government is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US and
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be consistent
about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that
Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US already
undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except via
false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference between
Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 22:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we
don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to
give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province
in a similar situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the
Georgian government is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US and
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be consistent
about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that
Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US already
undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except via
false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference between
Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of their
claims of genocide.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-15 22:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If we
don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force them to
give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free a province
in a similar situation? You don't have to buy the claim that the
Georgian government is equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be consistent
about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that
Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US already
undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except via
false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference between
Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of their
claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Fred Stone
2008-08-16 00:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If
we don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force
them to give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free
a province in a similar situation? You don't have to buy the
claim that the Georgian government is equivalent to the Serbian
one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be
consistent about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not
surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that
Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US already
undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except
via false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference
between Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of their
claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-16 01:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo. If
we don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and force
them to give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the Russians free
a province in a similar situation? You don't have to buy the
claim that the Georgian government is equivalent to the Serbian
one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be
consistent about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not
surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is that
Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US already
undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments except
via false moral equivalence propagated by Russian spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference
between Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of their
claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
So, since we don't like having them throw our actions in our face and
you cannot show us how it is different, what do you propose?
Fred Stone
2008-08-16 02:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
On 15 Aug 2008 18:03:29 GMT, Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo.
If we don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and
force them to give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the
Russians free a province in a similar situation? You don't
have to buy the claim that the Georgian government is
equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be
consistent about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is
that Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US
already undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments
except via false moral equivalence propagated by Russian
spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference
between Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of their
claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
So, since we don't like having them throw our actions in our face and
you cannot show us how it is different, what do you propose?
Here, try these keywords: Kosovo. Yugoslavia. Serbia. Slobodan Milosevic.
Ethnic Cleansing. NATO intervention. Independence from Serbia. UN
recognition. UN Security Council Resolution 1244.

Read and learn.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge
to rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-16 02:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
On 15 Aug 2008 18:03:29 GMT, Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo.
If we don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and
force them to give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the
Russians free a province in a similar situation? You don't
have to buy the claim that the Georgian government is
equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be
consistent about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it was
Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem is
that Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the US
already undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments
except via false moral equivalence propagated by Russian
spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference
between Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of their
claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
So, since we don't like having them throw our actions in our face and
you cannot show us how it is different, what do you propose?
Here, try these keywords: Kosovo. Yugoslavia. Serbia. Slobodan Milosevic.
Ethnic Cleansing. NATO intervention. Independence from Serbia. UN
recognition. UN Security Council Resolution 1244.
Read and learn.
So, that will get Putin to acknowledge the difference?
Fred Stone
2008-08-16 02:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
On 15 Aug 2008 19:02:47 GMT, Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
On 15 Aug 2008 18:03:29 GMT, Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to
the American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo.
If we don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and
force them to give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the
Russians free a province in a similar situation? You don't
have to buy the claim that the Georgian government is
equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be
consistent about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it
was Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem
is that Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the
US already undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments
except via false moral equivalence propagated by Russian
spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference
between Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of
their claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard
that *they* are using.
So, since we don't like having them throw our actions in our face
and you cannot show us how it is different, what do you propose?
Here, try these keywords: Kosovo. Yugoslavia. Serbia. Slobodan
Milosevic. Ethnic Cleansing. NATO intervention. Independence from
Serbia. UN recognition. UN Security Council Resolution 1244.
Read and learn.
So, that will get Putin to acknowledge the difference?
That's about as likely as getting you to acknowledge one of my citations.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
Free Lunch
2008-08-16 02:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
On 15 Aug 2008 19:02:47 GMT, Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
On 15 Aug 2008 18:03:29 GMT, Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like
they
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to
the American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
From the Russian point of view, it is very much like Kosovo.
If we don't respect the territorial integrity of Serbia and
force them to give up Kosovo by force, why shouldn't the
Russians free a province in a similar situation? You don't
have to buy the claim that the Georgian government is
equivalent to the Serbian one, but the US
and
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Fred Stone
NATO have already shown that we don't really care to be
consistent about territorial integrity.
I see that you have bought the Russian spin. Why am I not surprised?
You can be amazingly thick-headed at times. I pointed out it
was Russian spin and how they were justifying it. The problem
is that Georgia has no better arguments than the ones that the
US already undermined.
There you go again, the US hasn't "undermined" any arguments
except via false moral equivalence propagated by Russian
spinmeisters.
So, how should Secretary of State Rice explain the difference
between Kosovo and South Ossetia to Russia?
Demand that Russia submit to an international investigation of
their claims of genocide.
Did we claim genocide for Kosovo? Was that the standard we were using?
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard
that *they* are using.
So, since we don't like having them throw our actions in our face
and you cannot show us how it is different, what do you propose?
Here, try these keywords: Kosovo. Yugoslavia. Serbia. Slobodan
Milosevic. Ethnic Cleansing. NATO intervention. Independence from
Serbia. UN recognition. UN Security Council Resolution 1244.
Read and learn.
So, that will get Putin to acknowledge the difference?
That's about as likely as getting you to acknowledge one of my citations.
If you had not been so willing to assume that I was attacking you, you
would have noted that I'm not defending Putin in this.

mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-16 02:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
maybe they are looking for georgian weapons of mass destruction

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-16 02:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
maybe they are looking for georgian weapons of mass destruction
Which UN resolution called for Georgia to account for their WMD?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-16 02:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard that
*they* are using.
maybe they are looking for georgian weapons of mass destruction
Which UN resolution called for Georgia to account for their WMD?
rather sad watching you sacrafice georgia
just to kiss shrubs butt

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-16 02:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Russia is making those claims about Georgia. That's the standard
that *they* are using.
maybe they are looking for georgian weapons of mass destruction
Which UN resolution called for Georgia to account for their WMD?
rather sad watching you sacrafice georgia
just to kiss shrubs butt
Rather fun mopping the floor with you and your moral equivalencies.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-15 21:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the American
campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
depends on what aspects youre analogying

it would be harder for russia to justify their actions
if the usa was more respectful of other countries territorial integrity
including iraq anad kosovo

this is georgia paying for american arrogance

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 21:58:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Which means that the Georgia invasion is not analogous to the
American campaigns in Iraq or Kosovo.
depends on what aspects youre analogying
If you're not "analogying" all aspects, then they're not similar.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
it would be harder for russia to justify their actions
if the usa was more respectful of other countries territorial
integrity including iraq anad kosovo
this is georgia paying for american arrogance
This is Georgia paying for soft-headed moral nitwits like you.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
4635 Dead
2008-08-15 19:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by Fred Stone
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Well, no.
They invaded Georgia to occupy some more territory, just like they
always do.
Most of America's best friends are genocidal maniacs.

It's pathetic how these party clowns decide that's a bad thing only
when their leaders change their mind. Saddam was their buddy a decade
earlier.
Free Lunch
2008-08-15 18:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Apparently that was one of their claims. No evidence backed up this
allegation.
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
Yawn. Same old lame slogans.
But it is how the Kremlin is spinning it.
4635 Dead
2008-08-15 19:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Apparently that was one of their claims. No evidence backed up this
allegation.
They obviously want to get rid of Saakashvilli, but I don't recall
that they called him a genocidal maniac.
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
Yawn. Same old lame slogans.
But it is how the Kremlin is spinning it.
And, because there's truth to it, it works.
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 19:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by 4635 Dead
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
Apparently that was one of their claims. No evidence backed up this
allegation.
They obviously want to get rid of Saakashvilli, but I don't recall
that they called him a genocidal maniac.
The Russian ambassador was calling him that on Charlie Rose a couple of
nights ago.
Post by 4635 Dead
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
Yawn. Same old lame slogans.
But it is how the Kremlin is spinning it.
And, because there's truth to it, it works.
The best lies are 90% true.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
mariposas rand mair fheal
2008-08-15 21:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what Russia
did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less success and with
no large bully to come to the rescue of the attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
the russians say so
georgia attacked russian peacekeepers in order to regain control of a province
there are reports that georgians started the murdering of civilians
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
Yawn. Same old lame slogans.
too bad more people didnt think it lame when shrub said it

arf meow arf - raggedy ann and andy for president and vice
limp and spineless lint for brains is better yet and nice
then rueing pair of shrub and dick the republican lice
call me desdenova seven seven seven seven seven seven
Fred Stone
2008-08-15 21:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Problem is that what Georgia did in S. Ossetia is exactly what
Russia did in Chechnya, albeit with less brutality and less
success and with no large bully to come to the rescue of the
attacked province.
unfortunately for georgia
russia can point to iraq and kosovo
and say its just following the precedent set by the usa
The Russians invaded Georgia to depose a genocidal maniac?
the russians say so
They lie.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
georgia attacked russian peacekeepers in order to regain control of a
province there are reports that georgians started the murdering of
civilians
There were reports that Poland attacked Germany in 1939. I bet you'd have
believed them too.
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
Post by Fred Stone
Post by mariposas rand mair fheal
if might makes right for the usa
then it also makes right russia
Yawn. Same old lame slogans.
too bad more people didnt think it lame when shrub said it
Quote him on that.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule." - H L Mencken
i***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 10:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Those who fled expressed a feeling of betrayal. They said Russia's
president, Dmitry Medvedev, had duped them. "I believed him when he
said there was peace. That's why we stayed in our homes. But it isn't
true," Lamzika Tushmali, 62, said. She added: "There is no ceasefire."
Lamzika Tushmali it’s lol very strange name for Georgian. Try to find
other people with same name. No one. Try find other people with same
family name. No one. All Lamzika in the world have family name
Tushmali. And all Tushmali in the world have name Lamzika. And all
Lamzika Tushmali in the world 62 years old. And all of them live in
article author brain.
Lying article. Lying author. Lying magazine. Lying British press.
Kurt Nicklas
2008-08-15 11:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by i***@gmail.com
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Those who fled expressed a feeling of betrayal. They said Russia's
president, Dmitry Medvedev, had duped them. "I believed him when he
said there was peace. That's why we stayed in our homes. But it isn't
true," Lamzika Tushmali, 62, said. She added: "There is no ceasefire."
Lamzika Tushmali it’s lol very strange name for Georgian. Try to find
other people with same name. No one. Try find other people with same
family name. No one. All Lamzika in the world have family name
Tushmali. And all Tushmali in the world have name Lamzika. And all
Lamzika Tushmali in the world 62 years old. And all of them live in
article author brain.
Lying article. Lying author. Lying magazine. Lying British press.
Hey, malysh', I wonder what Anna Politkovskaya would be saying about
S. Ossetia if Putin's FSB thugs hadn't murdered her.

You fools have sacrificed your rights for security. I hope you're
happy.
i***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 11:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Those who fled expressed a feeling of betrayal. They said Russia's
president, Dmitry Medvedev, had duped them. "I believed him when he
said there was peace. That's why we stayed in our homes. But it isn't
true," Lamzika Tushmali, 62, said. She added: "There is no ceasefire."
Lamzika Tushmali it's lol very strange name for Georgian. Try to find
other people with same name. No one. Try find other people with same
family name. No one. All Lamzika in the world have family name
Tushmali. And all Tushmali in the world have name Lamzika. And all
Lamzika Tushmali in the world 62 years old. And all of them live in
article author brain.
Lying article. Lying author. Lying magazine. Lying British press.
Hey, malysh', I wonder what Anna Politkovskaya would be saying about
S. Ossetia if Putin's FSB thugs hadn't murdered her.
You fools have sacrificed your rights for security. I hope you're
happy.
Malysh' is your father.
I'm 32 years old. Russian. And I read your posts with out any
censorship. We have any information what we want. We looking any tv
channel of the world. You think my rights sacrificed?
Saakashvili closed 4 of 6 Georgian tv channel. From Georgia you can't
open any sites from ".ru" domain, and you think it is awesome
Democracy?
You think if some one killed Politkovskaya we haven't free speech?
Then tell me who killed JF Kennedy?
And say me please to the point question - can free journalist make
people from they mind?
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