Discussion:
#LATimes: Bush never lied to us about Iraq
(too old to reply)
Kurt Nicklas
2008-06-16 22:14:12 UTC
Permalink
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}


The administration simply got bad intelligence. Critics are wrong to
assert deception.
By James Kirchick
June 16, 2008


Touring Vietnam in 1965, Michigan Gov. George Romney proclaimed
American involvement there "morally right and necessary." Two years
later, however, Romney -- then seeking the Republican presidential
nomination -- not only recanted his support for the war but claimed
that he had been hoodwinked.

"When I came back from Vietnam, I had just had the greatest
brainwashing that anybody can get," Romney told a Detroit TV reporter
who asked the candidate how he reconciled his shifting views.

Romney (father of Mitt) had visited Vietnam with nine other governors,
all of whom denied that they had been duped by their government. With
this one remark, his presidential hopes were dashed.

The memory of this gaffe reverberates in the contemporary rhetoric of
many Democrats, who, when attacking the Bush administration's case for
war against Saddam Hussein, employ essentially the same argument. In
2006, John F. Kerry explained the Senate's 77-23 passage of the Iraq
war resolution this way: "We were misled. We were given evidence that
was not true." On the campaign trail, Hillary Rodham Clinton dodged
blame for her pro-war vote by claiming that "the mistakes were made by
this president, who misled this country and this Congress."

Nearly every prominent Democrat in the country has repeated some
version of this charge, and the notion that the Bush administration
deceived the American people has become the accepted narrative of how
we went to war.

Yet in spite of all the accusations of White House "manipulation" --
that it pressured intelligence analysts into connecting Hussein and Al
Qaeda and concocted evidence about weapons of mass destruction --
administration critics continually demonstrate an inability to
distinguish making claims based on flawed intelligence from knowingly
propagating falsehoods.

In 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously approved a
report acknowledging that it "did not find any evidence that
administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure
analysts to change their judgments." The following year, the
bipartisan Robb-Silberman report similarly found "no indication that
the intelligence community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction."

Contrast those conclusions with the Senate Intelligence Committee
report issued June 5, the production of which excluded Republican
staffers and which only two GOP senators endorsed. In a news release
announcing the report, committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV got
in this familiar shot: "Sadly, the Bush administration led the nation
into war under false pretenses."

Yet Rockefeller's highly partisan report does not substantiate its
most explosive claims. Rockefeller, for instance, charges that "top
administration officials made repeated statements that falsely linked
Iraq and Al Qaeda as a single threat and insinuated that Iraq played a
role in 9/11." Yet what did his report actually find? That Iraq-Al
Qaeda links were "substantiated by intelligence information." The same
goes for claims about Hussein's possession of biological and chemical
weapons, as well as his alleged operation of a nuclear weapons
program.

Four years on from the first Senate Intelligence Committee report, war
critics, old and newfangled, still don't get that a lie is an act of
deliberate, not unwitting, deception. If Democrats wish to contend
they were "misled" into war, they should vent their spleen at the CIA.

In 2003, top Senate Democrats -- not just Rockefeller but also Carl
Levin, Clinton, Kerry and others -- sounded just as alarmist.
Conveniently, this month's report, titled "Whether Public Statements
Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government Officials Were Substantiated by
Intelligence Information," includes only statements by the executive
branch. Had it scrutinized public statements of Democrats on the
Intelligence, Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees -- who
have access to the same intelligence information as the president and
his chief advisors -- many senators would be unable to distinguish
their own words from what they today characterize as warmongering.

This may sound like ancient history, but it matters. After Sept. 11,
President Bush did not want to risk allowing Hussein, who had twice
invaded neighboring nations, murdered more than 1 million Iraqis and
stood in violation of 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, to remain
in possession of what he believed were stocks of chemical and
biological warheads and a nuclear weapons program. By glossing over
this history, the Democrats' lies-led-to-war narrative provides false
comfort in a world of significant dangers.

"I no longer believe that it was necessary for us to get involved in
South Vietnam to stop communist aggression in Southeast Asia," Romney
elaborated in that infamous 1967 interview. That was an intellectually
justifiable view then, just as it is intellectually justifiable for
erstwhile Iraq war supporters to say -- given the way it's turned out
-- that they don't think the effort has been worth it. But predicating
such a reversal on the unsubstantiated allegation that one was lied to
is cowardly and dishonest.

A journalist who accompanied Romney on his 1965 foray to Vietnam
remarked that if the governor had indeed been brainwashed, it was not
because of American propaganda but because he had "brought so light a
load to the laundromat." Given the similarity between Romney's
explanation and the protestations of Democrats 40 years later, one
wonders why the news media aren't saying the same thing today.
Kate
2008-06-16 22:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}
The administration simply got bad intelligence. Critics are wrong to
assert deception.
By James Kirchick
June 16, 2008
Touring Vietnam in 1965, Michigan Gov. George Romney proclaimed
American involvement there "morally right and necessary." Two years
later, however, Romney -- then seeking the Republican presidential
nomination -- not only recanted his support for the war but claimed
that he had been hoodwinked.
"When I came back from Vietnam, I had just had the greatest
brainwashing that anybody can get," Romney told a Detroit TV reporter
who asked the candidate how he reconciled his shifting views.
Romney (father of Mitt) had visited Vietnam with nine other governors,
all of whom denied that they had been duped by their government. With
this one remark, his presidential hopes were dashed.
The memory of this gaffe reverberates in the contemporary rhetoric of
many Democrats, who, when attacking the Bush administration's case for
war against Saddam Hussein, employ essentially the same argument. In
2006, John F. Kerry explained the Senate's 77-23 passage of the Iraq
war resolution this way: "We were misled. We were given evidence that
was not true." On the campaign trail, Hillary Rodham Clinton dodged
blame for her pro-war vote by claiming that "the mistakes were made by
this president, who misled this country and this Congress."
Nearly every prominent Democrat in the country has repeated some
version of this charge, and the notion that the Bush administration
deceived the American people has become the accepted narrative of how
we went to war.
Yet in spite of all the accusations of White House "manipulation" --
that it pressured intelligence analysts into connecting Hussein and Al
Qaeda and concocted evidence about weapons of mass destruction --
administration critics continually demonstrate an inability to
distinguish making claims based on flawed intelligence from knowingly
propagating falsehoods.
In 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously approved a
report acknowledging that it "did not find any evidence that
administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure
analysts to change their judgments." The following year, the
bipartisan Robb-Silberman report similarly found "no indication that
the intelligence community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction."
Contrast those conclusions with the Senate Intelligence Committee
report issued June 5, the production of which excluded Republican
staffers and which only two GOP senators endorsed. In a news release
announcing the report, committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV got
in this familiar shot: "Sadly, the Bush administration led the nation
into war under false pretenses."
Yet Rockefeller's highly partisan report does not substantiate its
most explosive claims. Rockefeller, for instance, charges that "top
administration officials made repeated statements that falsely linked
Iraq and Al Qaeda as a single threat and insinuated that Iraq played a
role in 9/11." Yet what did his report actually find? That Iraq-Al
Qaeda links were "substantiated by intelligence information." The same
goes for claims about Hussein's possession of biological and chemical
weapons, as well as his alleged operation of a nuclear weapons
program.
Four years on from the first Senate Intelligence Committee report, war
critics, old and newfangled, still don't get that a lie is an act of
deliberate, not unwitting, deception. If Democrats wish to contend
they were "misled" into war, they should vent their spleen at the CIA.
In 2003, top Senate Democrats -- not just Rockefeller but also Carl
Levin, Clinton, Kerry and others -- sounded just as alarmist.
Conveniently, this month's report, titled "Whether Public Statements
Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government Officials Were Substantiated by
Intelligence Information," includes only statements by the executive
branch. Had it scrutinized public statements of Democrats on the
Intelligence, Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees -- who
have access to the same intelligence information as the president and
his chief advisors -- many senators would be unable to distinguish
their own words from what they today characterize as warmongering.
This may sound like ancient history, but it matters. After Sept. 11,
President Bush did not want to risk allowing Hussein, who had twice
invaded neighboring nations, murdered more than 1 million Iraqis and
stood in violation of 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, to remain
in possession of what he believed were stocks of chemical and
biological warheads and a nuclear weapons program. By glossing over
this history, the Democrats' lies-led-to-war narrative provides false
comfort in a world of significant dangers.
"I no longer believe that it was necessary for us to get involved in
South Vietnam to stop communist aggression in Southeast Asia," Romney
elaborated in that infamous 1967 interview. That was an intellectually
justifiable view then, just as it is intellectually justifiable for
erstwhile Iraq war supporters to say -- given the way it's turned out
-- that they don't think the effort has been worth it. But predicating
such a reversal on the unsubstantiated allegation that one was lied to
is cowardly and dishonest.
A journalist who accompanied Romney on his 1965 foray to Vietnam
remarked that if the governor had indeed been brainwashed, it was not
because of American propaganda but because he had "brought so light a
load to the laundromat." Given the similarity between Romney's
explanation and the protestations of Democrats 40 years later, one
wonders why the news media aren't saying the same thing today.
Gee, you might think an honest president upon finding out that his
intel was false and caused a war without reason, would immediately be
horrified and take steps to correct his error.
Kurt Nicklas
2008-06-16 22:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}
The administration simply got bad intelligence. Critics are wrong to
assert deception.
By James Kirchick
June 16, 2008
Touring Vietnam in 1965, Michigan Gov. George Romney proclaimed
American involvement there "morally right and necessary." Two years
later, however, Romney -- then seeking the Republican presidential
nomination -- not only recanted his support for the war but claimed
that he had been hoodwinked.
"When I came back from Vietnam, I had just had the greatest
brainwashing that anybody can get," Romney told a Detroit TV reporter
who asked the candidate how he reconciled his shifting views.
Romney (father of Mitt) had visited Vietnam with nine other governors,
all of whom denied that they had been duped by their government. With
this one remark, his presidential hopes were dashed.
The memory of this gaffe reverberates in the contemporary rhetoric of
many Democrats, who, when attacking the Bush administration's case for
war against Saddam Hussein, employ essentially the same argument. In
2006, John F. Kerry explained the Senate's 77-23 passage of the Iraq
war resolution this way: "We were misled. We were given evidence that
was not true." On the campaign trail, Hillary Rodham Clinton dodged
blame for her pro-war vote by claiming that "the mistakes were made by
this president, who misled this country and this Congress."
Nearly every prominent Democrat in the country has repeated some
version of this charge, and the notion that the Bush administration
deceived the American people has become the accepted narrative of how
we went to war.
Yet in spite of all the accusations of White House "manipulation" --
that it pressured intelligence analysts into connecting Hussein and Al
Qaeda and concocted evidence about weapons of mass destruction --
administration critics continually demonstrate an inability to
distinguish making claims based on flawed intelligence from knowingly
propagating falsehoods.
In 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously approved a
report acknowledging that it "did not find any evidence that
administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure
analysts to change their judgments." The following year, the
bipartisan Robb-Silberman report similarly found "no indication that
the intelligence community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction."
Contrast those conclusions with the Senate Intelligence Committee
report issued June 5, the production of which excluded Republican
staffers and which only two GOP senators endorsed. In a news release
announcing the report, committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV got
in this familiar shot: "Sadly, the Bush administration led the nation
into war under false pretenses."
Yet Rockefeller's highly partisan report does not substantiate its
most explosive claims. Rockefeller, for instance, charges that "top
administration officials made repeated statements that falsely linked
Iraq and Al Qaeda as a single threat and insinuated that Iraq played a
role in 9/11." Yet what did his report actually find? That Iraq-Al
Qaeda links were "substantiated by intelligence information." The same
goes for claims about Hussein's possession of biological and chemical
weapons, as well as his alleged operation of a nuclear weapons
program.
Four years on from the first Senate Intelligence Committee report, war
critics, old and newfangled, still don't get that a lie is an act of
deliberate, not unwitting, deception. If Democrats wish to contend
they were "misled" into war, they should vent their spleen at the CIA.
In 2003, top Senate Democrats -- not just Rockefeller but also Carl
Levin, Clinton, Kerry and others -- sounded just as alarmist.
Conveniently, this month's report, titled "Whether Public Statements
Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government Officials Were Substantiated by
Intelligence Information," includes only statements by the executive
branch. Had it scrutinized public statements of Democrats on the
Intelligence, Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees -- who
have access to the same intelligence information as the president and
his chief advisors -- many senators would be unable to distinguish
their own words from what they today characterize as warmongering.
This may sound like ancient history, but it matters. After Sept. 11,
President Bush did not want to risk allowing Hussein, who had twice
invaded neighboring nations, murdered more than 1 million Iraqis and
stood in violation of 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, to remain
in possession of what he believed were stocks of chemical and
biological warheads and a nuclear weapons program. By glossing over
this history, the Democrats' lies-led-to-war narrative provides false
comfort in a world of significant dangers.
"I no longer believe that it was necessary for us to get involved in
South Vietnam to stop communist aggression in Southeast Asia," Romney
elaborated in that infamous 1967 interview. That was an intellectually
justifiable view then, just as it is intellectually justifiable for
erstwhile Iraq war supporters to say -- given the way it's turned out
-- that they don't think the effort has been worth it. But predicating
such a reversal on the unsubstantiated allegation that one was lied to
is cowardly and dishonest.
A journalist who accompanied Romney on his 1965 foray to Vietnam
remarked that if the governor had indeed been brainwashed, it was not
because of American propaganda but because he had "brought so light a
load to the laundromat." Given the similarity between Romney's
explanation and the protestations of Democrats 40 years later, one
wonders why the news media aren't saying the same thing today.
Gee, you might think an honest president upon finding out that his
intel was false and caused a war without reason, would immediately be
horrified and take steps to correct his error.
When and how?
Kate
2008-06-17 01:04:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas
Post by Kurt Nicklas
Post by Kate
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}
The administration simply got bad intelligence. Critics are wrong to
assert deception.
By James Kirchick
June 16, 2008
Touring Vietnam in 1965, Michigan Gov. George Romney proclaimed
American involvement there "morally right and necessary." Two years
later, however, Romney -- then seeking the Republican presidential
nomination -- not only recanted his support for the war but claimed
that he had been hoodwinked.
"When I came back from Vietnam, I had just had the greatest
brainwashing that anybody can get," Romney told a Detroit TV reporter
who asked the candidate how he reconciled his shifting views.
Romney (father of Mitt) had visited Vietnam with nine other governors,
all of whom denied that they had been duped by their government. With
this one remark, his presidential hopes were dashed.
The memory of this gaffe reverberates in the contemporary rhetoric of
many Democrats, who, when attacking the Bush administration's case for
war against Saddam Hussein, employ essentially the same argument. In
2006, John F. Kerry explained the Senate's 77-23 passage of the Iraq
war resolution this way: "We were misled. We were given evidence that
was not true." On the campaign trail, Hillary Rodham Clinton dodged
blame for her pro-war vote by claiming that "the mistakes were made by
this president, who misled this country and this Congress."
Nearly every prominent Democrat in the country has repeated some
version of this charge, and the notion that the Bush administration
deceived the American people has become the accepted narrative of how
we went to war.
Yet in spite of all the accusations of White House "manipulation" --
that it pressured intelligence analysts into connecting Hussein and Al
Qaeda and concocted evidence about weapons of mass destruction --
administration critics continually demonstrate an inability to
distinguish making claims based on flawed intelligence from knowingly
propagating falsehoods.
In 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously approved a
report acknowledging that it "did not find any evidence that
administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure
analysts to change their judgments." The following year, the
bipartisan Robb-Silberman report similarly found "no indication that
the intelligence community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction."
Contrast those conclusions with the Senate Intelligence Committee
report issued June 5, the production of which excluded Republican
staffers and which only two GOP senators endorsed. In a news release
announcing the report, committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV got
in this familiar shot: "Sadly, the Bush administration led the nation
into war under false pretenses."
Yet Rockefeller's highly partisan report does not substantiate its
most explosive claims. Rockefeller, for instance, charges that "top
administration officials made repeated statements that falsely linked
Iraq and Al Qaeda as a single threat and insinuated that Iraq played a
role in 9/11." Yet what did his report actually find? That Iraq-Al
Qaeda links were "substantiated by intelligence information." The same
goes for claims about Hussein's possession of biological and chemical
weapons, as well as his alleged operation of a nuclear weapons
program.
Four years on from the first Senate Intelligence Committee report, war
critics, old and newfangled, still don't get that a lie is an act of
deliberate, not unwitting, deception. If Democrats wish to contend
they were "misled" into war, they should vent their spleen at the CIA.
In 2003, top Senate Democrats -- not just Rockefeller but also Carl
Levin, Clinton, Kerry and others -- sounded just as alarmist.
Conveniently, this month's report, titled "Whether Public Statements
Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government Officials Were Substantiated by
Intelligence Information," includes only statements by the executive
branch. Had it scrutinized public statements of Democrats on the
Intelligence, Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees -- who
have access to the same intelligence information as the president and
his chief advisors -- many senators would be unable to distinguish
their own words from what they today characterize as warmongering.
This may sound like ancient history, but it matters. After Sept. 11,
President Bush did not want to risk allowing Hussein, who had twice
invaded neighboring nations, murdered more than 1 million Iraqis and
stood in violation of 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, to remain
in possession of what he believed were stocks of chemical and
biological warheads and a nuclear weapons program. By glossing over
this history, the Democrats' lies-led-to-war narrative provides false
comfort in a world of significant dangers.
"I no longer believe that it was necessary for us to get involved in
South Vietnam to stop communist aggression in Southeast Asia," Romney
elaborated in that infamous 1967 interview. That was an intellectually
justifiable view then, just as it is intellectually justifiable for
erstwhile Iraq war supporters to say -- given the way it's turned out
-- that they don't think the effort has been worth it. But predicating
such a reversal on the unsubstantiated allegation that one was lied to
is cowardly and dishonest.
A journalist who accompanied Romney on his 1965 foray to Vietnam
remarked that if the governor had indeed been brainwashed, it was not
because of American propaganda but because he had "brought so light a
load to the laundromat." Given the similarity between Romney's
explanation and the protestations of Democrats 40 years later, one
wonders why the news media aren't saying the same thing today.
Gee, you might think an honest president upon finding out that his
intel was false and caused a war without reason, would immediately be
horrified and take steps to correct his error.
When and how?
You mean doing nothing and pretending for years that he made no
mistake is OK and honest?

How about admitting the error and doing something to make it right .

Face it boy. He did and he won't, so obviously he either lied then or
he's lying now and can't stop.

You don't get to have it both ways. Either he made the mistake then
and then didn't ever correct it, or he lied in the first place.
4095 Dead
2008-06-16 22:47:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}
http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/who_the_fck_is_james_kirchick
Who (or What) is James Kirchick?
Posted by Justin Raimondo on July 03, 2007

This James Kirchick character who smears Taki in TNR has quite a rep
in the blogosphere, best summed up by liberal blogger Matt Yglesias:

“Kirchick has a promising future in conservative journalism, having
mastered the time-honored techniques of rising through the ranks
without any demonstrated ability in fields other than arguing with
straw men and making things up about his opponents.”

Kirchick is a real piece of work: here he is retracting his youthful
distaste for the Gay Freedom Day Parade, and eagerly endorsing it now
that it provides some opportunity to bash Russia and create an
international incident. The neocons hate the Russians these days,
don’t you know: they won’t cooperate with the targeting of Iran, and
Putin is “anti-American,” i.e. on to the neocons’ game.

Naturally, Kirchick defends Bush’s get-out-of-jail-free card for
Scooter, but the comments section of his blog post over at TNR’s “The
Plank” have his number.

And, of course, Senor Kirchick hates Ron Paul, cluelessly writing:

“The burden lies on Paul (as well as those commentators who claim that
he somehow represents a welcome breath of fresh air to the GOP) to
identify specific aspects of our foreign policy that are wrongheaded.
This is something Paul has not yet done.”

Poor Kirchick: do they keep him locked up in a closet, so to speak,
over at TNR, and let him out only when they want to smear someone? He
has only to go to Youtube, or even Antiwar.com, where he’ll find that
Dr. Paul is very specific indeed when it comes to identifying the many
destructive aspects of our utterly wrongheaded foreign policy.

For someone who claims to hate “racism,” it’s passing strange that
Kirchick finds the virulently racist perambulations of his boss,
Martin Peretz, tolerable—but, then again, we all know that anti-Arab
racism isn’t really racism, at least not according to the neocons.
Here he is gloating over the death of Rachel Corrie. What a guy!

With the characteristic thuggishness of the left-neocon, who combines
a leftish fetish for confiscatory taxation with a neoconnish
vindictiveness, Kirchick bitchily snaps: “The best argument for the
Estate Tax--next to MTV’s ‘My Super Sweet 16’--is Taki.”

There is no good argument for the Estate Tax. However, if there was
such an argument-by-example, it would be Marty Peretz’s
ownership-control of The New Republic, which, up until recently, he
owed to his wife’s money. In 1974, Peretz purchased TNR with $380,000
contributed by his wife, Anne Labouisse Farnsworth, heir to the Singer
Sewing Machine Company fortune.

Thanks for demonstrating for us, Knickers, that the once-great LA
Times is just another right wing echo in the GOP noise machine.
Post by Kurt Nicklas
The administration simply got bad intelligence. Critics are wrong to
assert deception.
By James Kirchick
June 16, 2008
Touring Vietnam in 1965, Michigan Gov. George Romney proclaimed
American involvement there "morally right and necessary." Two years
later, however, Romney -- then seeking the Republican presidential
nomination -- not only recanted his support for the war but claimed
that he had been hoodwinked.
"When I came back from Vietnam, I had just had the greatest
brainwashing that anybody can get," Romney told a Detroit TV reporter
who asked the candidate how he reconciled his shifting views.
Romney (father of Mitt) had visited Vietnam with nine other governors,
all of whom denied that they had been duped by their government. With
this one remark, his presidential hopes were dashed.
The memory of this gaffe reverberates in the contemporary rhetoric of
many Democrats, who, when attacking the Bush administration's case for
war against Saddam Hussein, employ essentially the same argument. In
2006, John F. Kerry explained the Senate's 77-23 passage of the Iraq
war resolution this way: "We were misled. We were given evidence that
was not true." On the campaign trail, Hillary Rodham Clinton dodged
blame for her pro-war vote by claiming that "the mistakes were made by
this president, who misled this country and this Congress."
Nearly every prominent Democrat in the country has repeated some
version of this charge, and the notion that the Bush administration
deceived the American people has become the accepted narrative of how
we went to war.
Yet in spite of all the accusations of White House "manipulation" --
that it pressured intelligence analysts into connecting Hussein and Al
Qaeda and concocted evidence about weapons of mass destruction --
administration critics continually demonstrate an inability to
distinguish making claims based on flawed intelligence from knowingly
propagating falsehoods.
In 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously approved a
report acknowledging that it "did not find any evidence that
administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure
analysts to change their judgments." The following year, the
bipartisan Robb-Silberman report similarly found "no indication that
the intelligence community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction."
Contrast those conclusions with the Senate Intelligence Committee
report issued June 5, the production of which excluded Republican
staffers and which only two GOP senators endorsed. In a news release
announcing the report, committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV got
in this familiar shot: "Sadly, the Bush administration led the nation
into war under false pretenses."
Yet Rockefeller's highly partisan report does not substantiate its
most explosive claims. Rockefeller, for instance, charges that "top
administration officials made repeated statements that falsely linked
Iraq and Al Qaeda as a single threat and insinuated that Iraq played a
role in 9/11." Yet what did his report actually find? That Iraq-Al
Qaeda links were "substantiated by intelligence information." The same
goes for claims about Hussein's possession of biological and chemical
weapons, as well as his alleged operation of a nuclear weapons
program.
Four years on from the first Senate Intelligence Committee report, war
critics, old and newfangled, still don't get that a lie is an act of
deliberate, not unwitting, deception. If Democrats wish to contend
they were "misled" into war, they should vent their spleen at the CIA.
In 2003, top Senate Democrats -- not just Rockefeller but also Carl
Levin, Clinton, Kerry and others -- sounded just as alarmist.
Conveniently, this month's report, titled "Whether Public Statements
Regarding Iraq by U.S. Government Officials Were Substantiated by
Intelligence Information," includes only statements by the executive
branch. Had it scrutinized public statements of Democrats on the
Intelligence, Foreign Relations and Armed Services committees -- who
have access to the same intelligence information as the president and
his chief advisors -- many senators would be unable to distinguish
their own words from what they today characterize as warmongering.
This may sound like ancient history, but it matters. After Sept. 11,
President Bush did not want to risk allowing Hussein, who had twice
invaded neighboring nations, murdered more than 1 million Iraqis and
stood in violation of 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, to remain
in possession of what he believed were stocks of chemical and
biological warheads and a nuclear weapons program. By glossing over
this history, the Democrats' lies-led-to-war narrative provides false
comfort in a world of significant dangers.
"I no longer believe that it was necessary for us to get involved in
South Vietnam to stop communist aggression in Southeast Asia," Romney
elaborated in that infamous 1967 interview. That was an intellectually
justifiable view then, just as it is intellectually justifiable for
erstwhile Iraq war supporters to say -- given the way it's turned out
-- that they don't think the effort has been worth it. But predicating
such a reversal on the unsubstantiated allegation that one was lied to
is cowardly and dishonest.
A journalist who accompanied Romney on his 1965 foray to Vietnam
remarked that if the governor had indeed been brainwashed, it was not
because of American propaganda but because he had "brought so light a
load to the laundromat." Given the similarity between Romney's
explanation and the protestations of Democrats 40 years later, one
wonders why the news media aren't saying the same thing today.
Kurt Nicklas
2008-06-16 23:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by 4095 Dead
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Kurt Nicklas
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}
Thanks for demonstrating for us, Knickers, that the once-great LA
Times is just another right wing echo in the GOP noise machine.
Poor little baby Bryan! The big bully LAT doesn't write what he wants
so it must be evidence of some vast conspiracy, huh?

Do you have
any idea what a sap you look like when you make claims like the above?

No, probably not.....

-------------------------------
"I'm supporting Edwards for now."
--------- "Zepp" Jamieson 1/28/08

"Well, that's North Carolina. Whole state population's only got 14
chromosomes among them."
----------- "Zepp" Jamieson 12/27/2006
GOP Ruined the Earth
2008-06-16 23:43:44 UTC
Permalink
"Kurt Nicklas" <***@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:60b961d7-611b-48aa-838f-***@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

Bush wanted war with Saddam ever since Saddam called Daddy Bush a low level
CIA wussy, ,arried to a man.
Dan Clore
2008-06-17 05:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most
of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about Iraq for
years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.

It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in Oregon, I
could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein had WMDs than
the Bush administration could.

The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the conclusion
that there were none to be found, might have been the first clue. This
information wasn't exactly secret.
--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
Brian E. Clark
2008-06-17 15:45:25 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, Dan
Clore said...
Post by Dan Clore
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
...a piece written by a notoriously pro-war, pro-
Israel, de facto neocon columnist who has supported
Bush's war of aggression from the get go.

Conservative commentators are trying to cover their
discredited asses these days, and Kurt -- always a
fool when it comes to judging journalistic sources --
has fallen for their lies yet again. Color me
surprised.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
Kurt Nicklas
2008-06-19 23:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
Clore said...
Post by Dan Clore
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
...a piece written by a notoriously pro-war, pro-
Israel, de facto neocon columnist who has supported
Bush's war of aggression from the get go.
Conservative commentators are trying to cover their
discredited asses these days, and Kurt -- always a
fool when it comes to judging journalistic sources --
has fallen for their lies yet again. Color me
surprised.
Can't summon enough brainpower to contest even ONE point from the
piece I see.

Typical shallowness from you, Brian.

The World Wide Wade
2008-06-19 06:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most
of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about Iraq for
years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
The left didn't get everything right. Even Chomsky thought there were
probably WMDs.
Post by Dan Clore
It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in Oregon, I
could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein had WMDs than
the Bush administration could.
The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the conclusion
that there were none to be found,
What are you talking about here - pre or post invasion? Pre-invasion I
don't recall any weapons inspectors, including Blix, claiming there
were no WMDs to be found.
Post by Dan Clore
might have been the first clue. This
information wasn't exactly secret.
Virgil
2008-06-19 06:31:13 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most
of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about Iraq for
years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
The left didn't get everything right. Even Chomsky thought there were
probably WMDs.
Post by Dan Clore
It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in Oregon, I
could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein had WMDs than
the Bush administration could.
The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the conclusion
that there were none to be found,
What are you talking about here - pre or post invasion? Pre-invasion I
don't recall any weapons inspectors, including Blix, claiming there
were no WMDs to be found.
Blix certainly didn't say they had found any, and did express doubt
about whether there were any to be found. He also suggested that it
would be wise to give the search group time to do a thorough job before
taking any other actions.
The World Wide Wade
2008-06-19 19:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian E. Clark
In article
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most
of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about Iraq for
years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
The left didn't get everything right. Even Chomsky thought there were
probably WMDs.
Post by Dan Clore
It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in Oregon, I
could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein had WMDs than
the Bush administration could.
The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the conclusion
that there were none to be found,
What are you talking about here - pre or post invasion? Pre-invasion I
don't recall any weapons inspectors, including Blix, claiming there
were no WMDs to be found.
Blix certainly didn't say they had found any, and did express doubt
about whether there were any to be found.
He said at the UN in March 2003 they hadn't found any to date. I doubt
he expressed "doubt about whether there were any to be found"
publically before the invasion. Blix had been deceived badly before by
Saddam on nuclear weapons in 1991, so he was being very careful in
2002-2003.
Post by Brian E. Clark
He also suggested that it
would be wise to give the search group time to do a thorough job before
taking any other actions.
Of course, and this was obviously the right thing to do. My point is
that very few - if any - analysts, the anti-war ones included, were
going out on a limb to declare "no WMDs" pre-invasion. Certainly
Chomsky wasn't.
Dan Clore
2008-06-19 07:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that
most of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about
Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
The left didn't get everything right. Even Chomsky thought there were
probably WMDs.
Reference please.
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in
Oregon, I could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein
had WMDs than the Bush administration could.
The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the
conclusion that there were none to be found,
What are you talking about here - pre or post invasion? Pre-invasion
I don't recall any weapons inspectors, including Blix, claiming there
were no WMDs to be found.
I think your memory is on the blitz.
--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
The World Wide Wade
2008-06-19 19:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Clore
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that
most of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about
Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
The left didn't get everything right. Even Chomsky thought there were
probably WMDs.
Reference please.
Hilariously here's one from one Dan Clore that states "Chomsky
said he also supposed that Saddam Hussein was producing mass
destruction weapons."

http://tiny.cc/sV7La
Post by Dan Clore
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in
Oregon, I could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein
had WMDs than the Bush administration could.
The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the
conclusion that there were none to be found,
What are you talking about here - pre or post invasion? Pre-invasion
I don't recall any weapons inspectors, including Blix, claiming there
were no WMDs to be found.
I think your memory is on the blitz.
Let's be clear: "there were none to be found" is a flat out
declaration that there were none. "there were none found" is a much
weaker statement. I am saying no weapons inspectors working with
UNMOVIC in 2002-2003 made the flat out declaration. And furthermore,
neither did any analysts on the left to my memory. (If there were a
few who did, they were a tiny minority.)

Since you claim to have discovered Saddam had no WMDs from your
desktop prior to the invasion, perhaps you can cite a few posts of
yours prior to March 19 2003 where you triumpantly dispatch all the
idiots (like Chomsky) who were willing to concede Saddam may have had
WMDs. I wait definitive proof of your brilliance.
4095 Dead
2008-06-19 13:42:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:15:13 -0700, The World Wide Wade
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most
of what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left has been saying about Iraq for
years has been hogwash. No surprise there.}
Followed by a piece declaring that Bush wasn't lying when he got
everything wrong about Iraq, and the left got everything right.
The left didn't get everything right. Even Chomsky thought there were
probably WMDs.
Actually, he felt that Iraq had the means to develop WMDs. That's
probably true, but then, most of us have the same capability just from
the chemicals under our kitchen sink or in our garden sheds.
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
It's pretty remarkable that just sitting here at a computer in Oregon, I
could do a better job determining whether Saddam Hussein had WMDs than
the Bush administration could.
The fact that there were teams of weapons inspectors scouring the
country for WMDs, following up on every lead, who came to the conclusion
that there were none to be found,
What are you talking about here - pre or post invasion? Pre-invasion I
don't recall any weapons inspectors, including Blix, claiming there
were no WMDs to be found.
Read. The inspectors formally found Hussein to be "essentially in
complience" by 2001.
Post by The World Wide Wade
Post by Dan Clore
might have been the first clue. This
information wasn't exactly secret.
--

What do you call a Republican with a conscience?

An ex-Republican.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)

"Prosperity and peace are in the balance," -- Putsch, not admitting that he's against both

Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
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a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
The World Wide Wade
2008-06-19 06:30:24 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Kurt Nicklas
{The mainstream media is slowly coming to the realization that most of
what the Bush-hating, nutroot Left
has been saying about Iraq for years has been hogwash. No surprise
there.}
The administration simply got bad intelligence. Critics are wrong to
assert deception.
By James Kirchick
June 16, 2008
Bush repeatedly lied about ties between Iraq and al Qaeda. Rice lied
about aluminum tubes. Cheney repeatedly lied about about a meeting
between Atta and an Iraqi agent. The list of lies and deceptions is
long indeed.
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